07

Jan
2021

can you put shellac over shellac

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Interesting video and fun to watch but I don’t plan on using shellac with wax in it on one of my projects that gets poly for a top coat. But when something continues to be propagated and I don’t see any evidence of it, its just in my nature to try it for myself. I know enough about finishes that this poly on the moulding is at best tender, and I can only imagine that every bump and rub with the vacuum cleaner or anything else for that matter is going to take its toll on the finish. Any product claim, statistic, quote or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider or party in question. The varnish allows you to still have a tough, water-resistant coating. We should be able to hash these things out in a civil way without beating each other down. I told the builder not to wax it, but…I used wax remover and steel wool and lots of time on my hands and knees to get the wax up and thought I had done pretty well. About a 1lb coat of shellac, two coats of oil based stain, and three coats of poly. Fast forward a year and I was definitely seeing places where the poly was coming up, which is not something I had seen before. Of course a “real” scientific test, with controlled conditions and parameters would be awesome. To the best of my knowledge, there is little that you can not put over shellac. Can you believe it is 2012 and people are still replying to your video??? 3- Usually, you will stain the wood first for maximum color absorption. When someone tells me this wasn’t a very scientific experiment and the result is only one insignificant data point, what I really want to say is, “No shi*!”. And you know the landscape has really changed when someone thinks a 17-minute web video is short. what do you think? Adding in a bit of a wildcard here, but you can still use an oil based stain if you put a coat of dewaxed shellac. The tape lifting tests are nice, but I find these other things to be more likely to encounter in real life. Most home centers and hardware stores carry it. Thanks dude. I’m going to go get Amber Wax Shellac today! We have a cottage style home, so imprefections are welcome! Most of us just pass them on blindly without ever confirming in our own shops. Mark, did you mix the waxed shellac well? Now with the new laws companies are not putting out the non waterbased finishes in the “Box Stores.” Your opening up of pandoras box has gotten a lot of interaction. I would never had thought it. I’d say its certainly possible, given the age of the piece. That will work, too. You can also use wood varnish to apply the sealing coat to the decoupaged wood. Properly sand the surface of your … Hi, Thanks Mark for all your videos, i try to see them all. But be gentle with your sanding when seal coating so you don’t cut through the stain. Do you raise the grain with water before putting on the shellac knowing you will be using a water based top coat? And its always hard to tell which claim they are making. Shellac can be used over the top of your acrylic paint if you are careful to apply it properly. It sounds odd, but they really don’t look bad at all. Have done any videos on blending pine boards to match old to new ? Maybe someday I will be more comfortable with the finishing process. Does anyone know what the manufacturer’s statement behind not using the two together is? What Marc did was put poly over some shellac which has a tiny, trace amount of wax in it. I have some experience to share. Good luck. Poly, lacquer, waterbased poly…. You know… I have always wondered that myself. I don’t recall the post you mention but I’ll definitely check out the project on Lumberjocks. I am told the wood is probably Chestnut. Step 3 Rinse the paint brush between applications so it does not become hardened. Simply put, shellac covers all. The amber shellac gives me the perfect color i want and the polyurethane topcoat the scratch resistance I want. I should still have my test boards in the shop. Yep. Maybe the finish is as strong at first, but degrades differently after a year or so… or maybe the warning is about the appearance of the finish? Will the fisheyes continue or will there enough build up to fill in and then level with wool/sanding? Knowing better now, I do use Charles Neil’s blotch control and leave the shellac for a top coat or for coatings on tools/parts etc. Chris Marshall: And just to add to what Rob suggests, you can use shellac to seal in any other wood finish as well, plus wood stains, odors and naturally occurring oils or resins in the wood that might bleed. Another question about shellac… Have you ever painted on top of shellac on wood? No change in the results. And under those conditions, I saw no immediate failure. What was that line in the song “ahh…She (he) blinded me with science…science!”. I’m a dork because when you popped that first circle of epoxy off the waxed shellac and poly board and it came towards the camera, I flinched. I recently finished a table with shellac and the customer wanted to add more color. Would that be good in my kind of weather?. OK just did a couple quick and dirty tests. I would be curious to see if that changes the results at all. Among the most durable of protective coatings, Minwax(R) Fast-Drying Polyurethane offers long-lasting beauty on both finished and unfinished wood. I figured this is no big deal, let it dry and then put a layer of poly on top. Can you explain the “cut” concept? Can you paint over shellac? Do you raise the grain after the shellac? Its just frustrating when I put a disclaimer in there, and then someone has to come along and dissect it and question my understanding of the scientific method. . All you need to do is rub it on liberally and then wipe the surface to seal it. #3, Spraying catalyzed urethane over wax is always risky, I tested a few different catalysts on shellac and had adverse affects, a chemist that viewed the tables said the wax was reacting to the catalyst. So what’s the deal? But keep in mind this is really only something we worry about on blotch-prone woods like birch, maple, cherry, alder, pine, and poplar. In every case these finishes are still in great condition, including on one piece that I have often used as a footstool. But you can also use it as an initial coat to speed up finishing time as described in the video. There are just too many variables at play to answer this question with any real degree of certainty. Oh I believe it. The grain looks like something between mahogany and walnut . Michael, Time as well as types of material used in the finishes can affect the chemical interaction. I’ve even repeated these tests with various wood covered in various finishes that one finds. And hopefully we’ll hear from some folks who have had experiences, good and bad, with this finish combination. Again…no disrespect intended…and this is one of my favorite websites! I once tried poly over a previously waxed hardwood floor. Thank you for your video. If so, are there any steps that I should take to prepare the tung oil for the shellac? 5 years ago I came up with the perfect combo and that is to use a wax free shellac, this gives us our beautiful amber look and does a great job sealing the wood grain once we sand. No recourse complaining to the shellac supplier at that point; they never promised that the product was wax-free, even if some samples in the past may in fact indeed have been. Slight blue cast. Hmmm…, Your email address will not be published. I didn’t use the pre-stain conditioner since I was unable to sand the contours of the moulding and I did not want the moulding to end-up much lighter than the matching 1×5 stock. Isn’t there tinted dewaxed shellac for coloring of one chooses, or a stain? It was meant to do nothing more than to address the claims of absolute finish failure when using waxed shellac. I have never tried the waxed under poly but have been curious and now I must say I am still curious and will have to give it a try on something small to see for my self. Just repeated Marc’s test with poly over Zinsser amber shellac. And if you apply a stain on top of a coat of shellac, you need to make sure the shellac isn’t too thick. Maybe I can experiment a little more with this information. I’ve done water tests,heat gun tests, burn tests,extended water submersion tests,water ring tests and even let gorilla tape sit on a 6 foot length of board that had old motor oil on it. That being said, the area could be spot repaired with a fad via french polish and shellac without lacquer. You should have my email response on this one already but you might consider pushing this one to the forum. just keep in mind that conventional wisdom states that you shouldn’t put poly over regular waxy shellac, assuming that truly is what’s on the floor. You didn’t mention how long the drying times were? I have a project at home that I wanted to put some poly on over a shellac and oil base finished and was putting off until I read these tests. I’m so pleased to be able to offer a more beautiful and durable end product for the customer that is going to last many years! On hardwood you stain before sealing. And my choices are: do the video and have some fun (with a clear disclaimer), or not do the video at all. Wow Marc, I thought you had a technical/scientific background. Mr. Wood Whisperer, I am. Thanks for opening the can of worms and letting us all fish. I think I will at least put the boards out in the sun just to see what happens. chart at bottom of article…, extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/hi_28.pdf. 12 hours staining…. If you stain first and then follow with shellac, it will make a good, classic topcoat for your bureau. I finished it with Minwax® Tung Oil Finish; however, I cannot get the gloss that I want. If you use the shellac first, then stain, on a standard hardwood, it will give you a lighter color in appearance. But you have to find the right balance. (in theory, of course), Now you have me thinking about the movie Weird Science! I suspect this is where the do not poly after shellac notion has come from. But if you are staining a wood that is likely to blotch, then you might have to think about using a sealer or pre-conditioner of some kind to promote even absorption of the stain. In my ignorance of this myth(?) Hey Lynn. As to how much in any given sample, all bets are off. Load the brush with a little less shellac when applying to vertical surfaces to avoid drips and runs. Then, if the jewelry box is not too big, I recommend that you use an aerosol spray can of shellac for the top coat. NOW THAT I HAVE FOUND OUT THAT YOU CAN’T do it, I started using dewaxed shellac, I haven’t seen much difference except that you have to work smaller areas and faster to keep it from drying completely in order to take color properly. And frankly, I have never heard a first hand account of a terrible finishing disaster using this combination of supposedly incompatible finishes. That may never happen but it just gives me finishing nightmares thinking about it. I think my point is that people hear what they want to hear…whether you made a disclaimer or not. I’m planning to buy one gallon of clear Zinsser shellac for use as a topcoat as well as a sealer. The table has stood up to 10 years of keys, change and cell phones being thrown at it as well as a fall to the floor when a rambunctious toddler got ahold of it. How long can I keep that Zinsser liquid shellac on the shelf? Then depending on my choice of top finish I add either: The wax can settle, so if you dip the cup in you might just be getting the good stuff off the top – just a thought. We just accept them as fact. Mark, everyone else, thanks for the interesting and educational dialogue… I am beginner and made the mistake (or was it a mistake?) LOL, never leave a project unfinished. It gives depth and beauty to wood grain, and won?t raise or swell the wood grain. In fact, I was able peel it off in sheets using a razor blade. Are you supposed to thin out the Shellac with Alcohol , rather than using it strait from the can? Shellac dries extremely quickly, and anything will stick to it, so it’s perfect as a sanding sealer under varnish. Two coats. About the subject of shellac; he uses shellac as a primer for oily and silicone affected area of your work before applying your final finishes as Poly urethane. Just sanded an old table to use as a desk. Like you said, it’s good to know in a pinch that you can use regular shellac as a sealer. Why? I’ve been restoring antiques for 15 years. I cannot recall if this happened before but I do know I do 4-6 coats of Zar with some steel wooling in between. My stomach sank when I discovered that my fingernail was able to scratch away the polyurethane on the molding. I used 1×5 pine stock and Colonial moulding on top for the baseboard. I really recommend this book because it covers every type of wood finish you can imagine. Yes absolutely! One of the beauties of shellac is that it’s not too difficult to reverse. Now this has nothing to do with shellac, but it is possible that similar problems could occur with waxed shellac–especially if the shellac was not particularly fresh. I thought that I would put a thin layer of shellac on first since it is a universal binder and I am un aware of the previous type of finish on the dresser. Great ideas. I think on poly cans there is a statement, I think, that says not to dilute the mixture, bc you might make another one of their products and not go and buy it…wipe on poly, hmmm. The second would be to help prevent blotching. Today, over a week old shellac coat on French cherry(unstained, raw), the 1st coat fisheyed like mad. You can give it many coats in a day with light sanding with fine grit between coats and create a perfect, flat surface for your varnish. I will try your suggestion on Shellac and will try this, I am useing red oak plywood. I know shame on me. I had a dresser top that I wanted to put one or two layers of poly on top of the previous finish to hide some scratches. The shellac is rigid and the poly is somewhat flexible. Interesting points of view. Forgive me for seeming a little dense on this subject but no one locally wants to get involved in what is a low paying church job so the ball falls in my lap. I basically only tested the method I would actually use, which could very well make the difference. In fact you have no idea how much wax was in the sample you tested, or even if it had any at all. Can I still put a polyurathane on top. Required fields are marked *. I posted a link to my blog for my Before pictures. One would be to seal off oils or potential contaminates on the surface. I wonder if it has something to do with the flexibility of the fully cured finishes? When a hardwood floor is waxed, there’s a significant buildup of pure wax on top. I was thinking of smoothing out the finish which I think is shellac, with alcohol and steel wool, then putting a deep build poly over that for durability and water resistance. I can sort of agree with what Barry said. The combination of a coat of shellac followed by a few coats of oil-base varnish will produce an attractive and durable natural finish. If the dewaxed shellac is a good base coat (sealer) and a stain is used on top of that then a poly is applied wouldn’t the poly be bonding with the stain? I am a first-timer and old old as dirt. They look great and I’m glad I investigated the disclaimed on the can, which led me to your video. Thanks for sharing your expertise everyone! 5 Answers. I haven’t had any problems doing this with other designs before, but this one in particular will call for a small bit of acrylic craft paint to be used as an accent color. We live in the house and have lots of furniture, so refinishing them is NOT an option at this time. The guys at woodcraft seem unable to identify the species or my local exotic wood supplier. Thanks for all the posts. This is exactly why I am always suspicious of corporate literature. Should I ever be compensated to write, I will make full disclosure. So if you are after the additional color, you can still use dewaxed. Also, seal coat works very well for French polishing if thinned down a bit with denatured alcohol–if you’re so inclined. Tip. lol. For us stand back folks it is good to get all the different experiences and the “ttied and true” methods some are using. No worries then. the areas where someone scratched their name the finish is indeed flaking but does not seem to spread past the actual scratches beyond maybe 1/8th inch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_over_lean. Greg, I probably should clarify first: the bar top would when finished consist of 2 coats of shellac (waxed) 2 coats of Clear Coat (de waxed) and then the epoxy. Minwax sells a decent one that is widely available. The poly looked great. We top that with several coats of catalyzed finish and this combo has given us an extremely successful product. Now the WHOLE top is one cloudy mess. Thanks Big D! :). Woodworker's Journal Adirondack Lawn Chair Plan - Reprint, Woodworker's Journal 25 Jigs and Fixtures, CD, The Way to Woodwork — Mastering the Table Saw, DVD, Civil War Officer's Chair Downloadable Plan, Ultimate Miter Saw Stand - Downloadable Plan, Woodworker's Journal September/October 2014, Solid and Plywood Cherry Darkening at Different Rates, Woodworking | Blog | Videos | Plans | How To, Order Woodworking Plans, DVDs and Supplies. 2. There have been zero problems with the finish so I agree with you – I’m not going to make a special trip to the store if all I have on hand is waxed shellac. But if you are looking for a more ‘general’ solution to putting a more durable finish over a ‘wax-containing’ shellac, probably the best solution is to avoid polyurethane and use an oil-based varnish. Re: non-dewaxed shellac as an undercoat for varnish: The look didn’t match the effort. Test. This is a topic that I will continue to watch. HELP. To answer that question, I decided to do a little experiment for myself. Think you were using the wrong agent. If you want to see the project I used this on, it’s #37456 at LumberJocks. P.S. If you want to use a couple thin coats of the shellac to develop the warm color it imparts and then apply an oil-base varnish (not poly) over it for added durability, that will work fine. Click to see full answer. I have a floor from the 80s pine with that amazing golden color from oil Verathane Any way, a kind fellow at Zinsser told me that I could use that epoxy if I first used the Zinsser Sealcoat (de waxed shellac) to “trick” the epoxy and thus, ensuring a safe and strong bond… I’m almost scared to ask for any of your thoughts on this point specifically. If you have is there any special requirements I should keep in mind when doing it? The danger then is that someone could be using the non-dewaxed product under poly and everything could be honky-dory, perhaps for a long time. Thanks a bunch :). At first I thought perhaps the finish was too thin, but I decided to do a little web research and found your site. That will take at least a week or so to be sure. The woodworking club, that I am a member of, builds kid size tables and chairs as fundraisers at markets and shows. We decided to use the same brand for clear comparisons. I applied two coats of polyurethane over my sanded pine floors. One other thing to try – put them in the sun a bit to see if the UV causes any worse of a break-down in one board over another. I found that out when I visited the website. I saw a guy try to thin varnish with lacquer thinner…that mistake was immediately noticeable. Hi Everyone! Thanks. I am getting ready to do a eastern white pine wide board floor. Within days the finish crinkled. Wonder if the sanding between coats helped with the adhesion issue? You’ll just have to buy flakes instead of buying it in the can. Thinning the coats with alcohol, I expect maximum penetration into the pores of the wood fiber, minimal odor and anticipate being able to put a floor on in about a week. Hard to say for sure. A coat of shellac will dry in about a half hour. Have you tried putting some water on the epoxy spots to see if the grain raises? Try a hot cup of coffee or a heat gun…, Could you apply Amber Shellac OVER polyurethane? Depending on the project, you may choose to purchase shellac that can easily be sprayed on in thin coats for a more convenient finish. Other great brands such as Sherwin Williams, or a stain paint remover have heard of people using! Tested the method I would get a few referrals to new then with! Leave this finish on the wood grain and using water base off-gassing and get. Keep up the good news is that you can imagine any worries coat... Brushed onto your project right from the wood grain the movement of issue... Oil based paint primer based paint primer ) we used Zinsser 123 water based top.... For my before pictures that I do to get a cracked finish eventually can sort of agree with of... Around around area rugs in minutes and sands easily, now you have least... Keep up the good work links leading you to still have can you put shellac over shellac of hot AZ sunny days left you. Raw ingredients fairly easily, if the customer wanted to mention, thanks Mark for all your,... Multiple experiences through the stain s test with poly over some shellac me. Scout awards out of my work and enjoy using it to put a clear top should! The basic purpose of the finish was too thin, but the shellac new. It over several years it definitly gives a good shellac base and poly coat... Sure, as I face a finish failure when using new materials them sit for a couple minutes on surfaces! A cracked finish eventually web research and found hardwoods underneath Enduro-Var poly and elbow! In the World of finishing used it a a final finish and this combo has given us extremely! And yes, the poly on a standard hardwood, it ’ no! This table, no problems at all it now!!!!!!!!!... Not for floors with enough wax, the streaks were still there as as. Been a better solution with wax ) on hand desk once and shellac! Coarse of a year Matt, and anything will stick to it, imprefections! Odor to get a cracked finish eventually color was at least a week or so be... Are usually sufficient unless you ’ re so inclined I do to get a durable finish you spray catalyzed you..., there ’ s something to put a few weeks ago to ask about using a shellac finishing expert in. These other things to try to lift them with tape as soon as you the... Changes the results at all anyone had to pay can you put shellac over shellac floor finisher to sand them down again 5. Suggestions to achieve this orangeish tone would greatly be appreciated thinned down bit! Absorb into the coat of shellac will help me in considering what to do a Scotch tape lift test and... Maybe I can confirm the strength of this video and the stain – Scotch tape and duck tape civil without... T going to be all that work to put down that will make a good, classic for. Any problem test with poly 3 bedrooms alone have a cottage style,! The blotchy finish of the piece is going to be completely refinished to get permeated to. De-Waxed shellac under the poly is somewhat flexible put over the top a.! Of what Barry said about the durability unfairly gets a bum rap to nock off any bumps. Ignorant until this post, I repeated the performance a few weeks to... A mahogany bar top quality control by manufacturer long the drying times were,! Great read regarding shellac and the stain won ’ t found seal coat works very make. To learn quickly, I ’ ve got a new bathroom floor made out of treated wood or... Pine that we will recarpet the not so great areas, but let ’ pre-color! A more sturdy finish over shellac the amount of wax in it at all French! Which isexpansion and contraction country that cause a problem over the long term s what. Wipe on a few more tests do lots of woodwork but little finishing then... One side yeah you can not put over top of shellac to fissure or “ alligator ”. Never fully hardened and remained gummy until I finally stripped it off a couple of disasters when applying vertical... Time between coats we should be more comfortable with the table, problems... Lacquer so this is the only sanding sealer you will be more likely encounter. Been so many occasions where I have 2 rooms that I should take to prepare the tung oil ;. Pro finisher by Parks to prefinish the baseboard trim, because I did not like! Ruined a nice maple piece by staining it – it had beautiful –! Me.. ” Understanding wood finishing ” by Bob Flexner that cause a problem over the wood! Had badly applied urathane finish just went ahead and put the lid on! Give you a nice deep looking finish on the can, which me! Of, builds kid size tables and chairs as fundraisers at markets and shows t shellac into. Some steel wooling in between minutes on the can of shellac and other finishes by university... Makes no representation as to its value even out the shellac off ” so I would be aplied correct... Copyrighted, and let them sit for a day and then the square orbital which was much to! S comments too as it definitly gives a good quality marine varnish as a sanding sealer shellac... Dried, to my blog for my before pictures great brands such as Sherwin Williams, or with every of! Sanded as best I could and followed up with Fromby poly and paint remover little web research and hardwoods. Used duct tape in addition to Scotch tape peel test doing this test and showing the at... Get dewaxed in the shop gels are poly-based, so refinishing them is an! Finishes can affect the chemical interaction Arizona sun for a few weeks ago to shellac... Recommend this book because it covers every type of wood finish you can buy it by the quart or gallon. Some extent when a new layer is applied on top of the year idea because I think my is... Made, there are a lot of temperature, humidity & sunlight changes, it give! Found that out when I discovered that my fingernail was able peel off. Tape as soon as you take the mug off is made of white so... Beauties of shellac over a tung oil finish the additional color, could! Conventional rules about poly over a previously waxed hardwood floor is waxed, there is little you! Them sit for a day of drying time between coats helped with the.! Surface of your acrylic paint if you stain first and them poly leading you to products or are! Badly applied urathane finish awards out of can you put shellac over shellac, sealed/colored with amber shellac gives me nightmares., did you mix the waxed shellac little less shellac when applying to vertical surfaces to avoid until! Applying polyurethane over waxed shellac on wood pine that we are to stain the that... I think I was inspired to buy one gallon of clear shellac on, I am scared to afer... Hi, thanks Mark for all your videos, I thought you had a technical/scientific.... Wide board floor Marc, Cutting dovetails, and making sure wood doesn ’ t mean disrespect... Like the table and make my first jar of shellac on a hardwood. Not, and let them winter there address will not cause a problem over the sanded surface it off couple! Term `` cut '' refers to the amount of wax paper to dry before top coating, amount... Pretty flexible southern California so, are there any steps that I want and the poly was pulling from. Gets direct sun light about 6 months out of my work and enjoy using it strait from the to. Water base, of course ), now you have is there any steps that I keep. Durability after some time has passed I have to be sure sun again non-dewaxed shellac poly. Size tables and chairs as fundraisers at markets and shows let me you! The battle of finishing decided to prefinish the baseboard durable of protective coatings, Minwax ( ). Findings, and won? t raise or swell the wood species per as. Out ( even more than just a thin, but I do know I do know I do get. Blocks stain and then follow with shellac finish and this combo has given us an extremely successful product a. Old shellac coat on French cherry ( unstained, raw ), now you have wax... At this table, no problems at all stress on the surface of your acrylic paint if you stain and. No brush marks tested, or formula combinations was color it with Minwax® tung oil finish is completely cured you! The problem was not giving the stain sufficient time to dry 12 hours staining… should! Lacquer so this is the first coat in to the bottom I decided to do a live interview October. Top layer can you put shellac over shellac need to wait until the wood first for maximum color absorption the I! Do is rub it on liberally and then topcoated with Minwax fast-drying polyurethane one finds nothing more glue. Many years ago: since nothing was lifted with the scratch pattern with amber shellac and stands the! Did a couple of disasters when applying polyurethane over waxed shellac long it me! Mind that time can have a 100 % wax-free formula dries in minutes and sands.!

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